Writing Autopsy - At What Point did the Show's Writing Start to Suck?

Hey all, I felt the need to start this thread because of a clearly passionate conversation occurring in the Derpibooru Post Traumatic Stress Disorder Relief Thread that’s off topic for it. People seem to have strong feelings about the topic and I couldn’t find another thread in the episode discussion section that fit, so here we are.
 
 
Now, we all realise that the show began to take a consistent dive in writing quality sometime after the first few seasons, but I struggle to pinpoint when exactly. And I think a lot of people do, I haven’t really heard anyone give a solid answer to this.
 
The first few seasons had some bad episodes, but every show does. Especially those made in America where for some reason they don’t consider it a proper season unless it’s at least 20 episodes long, so there’s going to be a sizable amount of filler and trash even in the best shows.
 
I know people constantly like to blame Magical Mystery Cure as “the point of no return”, but I’m not so sure about that one. The whole episode was shockingly bad and brought on Alicorn Twilight rather abruptly, but that’s all it seemed to be. A shockingly bad episode with an abrupt conclusion to Twilight’s main character arc.
 
So that’s why I created this thread, so we can share observations and discuss. And hopefully ascertain the moment when our favourite show about wonderful cartoon ponies began it’s backwards slide into mediocrity and lazy writing.

When Starlight was introduced. It felt like a change happened.

@Dex Stewart  
Yeah, Starlight is another one of those that everyone likes to blame, similar to MMM. Again, I’m not so sure about that, many of the worst episodes of later seasons have Starlight Glimmer in either a background or cameo role (some don’t have her appear at all).
 
If you have more to the point, may I ask you to please substantiate it? What kind of change specifically? And do you think Starlight was the cause or a symptom?

I have no issues with the later seasons, but I’d say it’s the change in writers.

@Havoc  
Writers who are newly brought onto an IP they’re unfamiliar with always cause some problems no matter how skilled, this is true. However I would suggest that the writers weren’t particularly skilled to being with, or simply ran out of ideas and material to work with.
 
Another one of the problems with how long American shows run for. Unless you’re telling a big epic story like Game of Thrones, you struggle to fill so many episodes with substantive content.  
Also GoT only had about 10 episodes a season anyway.  
And it still ended up being consistently shit by Season 7.

@FeatherTrap  
The Simpsons found a way. South Park found a way. There is a way.

@Havoc  
The Simpsons hasn’t been good since it’s seventh season at latest, most argue the fifth was the last good one.
 
As for South Park, I really can’t comment on that one cause I get bored of watching comedy shows with one joke after the first few episodes.

The wedding with lovebutt, but that was near season three. Season four is a good contender, as it seemed that the show started doing more pandering or more blatant pandering. After that it started going meta and ended with political dog whistles.
 
Also, the characters were slowly being flanderized. I am not sure if that was present in the earlier seasons tho.

I’d say after Season 5, most of the old guard was out by that point and it really started to show. By Season 7 at the very latest, it seemed like the Mane Six had grown as much as they would as characters and everything past then was regression, reassertions to their previous growth, or just fooling around.

@Anonymous #4752  
Only so many times watching them learn the same lessons can be entertaining. Also, by season 7 some chars were flanderized beyond the point of being enjoyable, like pinkie and some times twagot. I would say pride flag, but for me atleast, she was never enjoyable.

@Anonymous #E574  
A Canterlot Wedding was mostly set back by the sudden introduction of two important characters in Twilight’s life with no setup, making the Princesses incompetent for the sake of drama (which would become an annoying pattern in the show) and the rushed solutions to the main conflict. That being said, with a few notable exceptions (The Crystal Empire, Magical Mystery Cure, Keep Calm and Flutter On and Spike at Your Service) I remember Season 3 being alright. On the subject of Season Four though, I’ve been thinking more about what @Dex Stewart said earlier and @Anonymous #4752 has brought up something that made me wonder…
 
 
@Anonymous #4752  
I wonder if the reason people associate Starlight Glimmer with the show’s quality dropping isn’t so much wrong, as much as misplaced blame. She feels like an attempt at a rebooted Twilight, is the common complaint I’m noticing, but…well, Twilight already reached the end of her character arc by the end of Season 3. Rather abruptly I might add.
 
So I can’t help but wonder if Starlight exists because the writers blew their load with Twiggles too early. If so, she’s not really the cause of the downward spiral in writing, merely an attempt to correct it and I find it unfair to blame the character for the show’s dip in quality, even if she is a symbolic representation of it.

@FeatherTrap  
There might be some confusing correlation with causation there. Starlight joined the cast as the writing was beginning to falter, but I don’t think she was the cause.
 
I do think the new writers favored her, likely because she didn’t have five season worth of development they had to build on top of. Through seasons 6-8, she was the only character left who was consistently growing, though even she bottomed out to some extent by season 9.

@FeatherTrap  
Lots of pple blame her because of how badly she is written. That fact in and of itself corroborates exactly what 4752 said. Also, it was not impossible to go forward with twi’s character in a meaningfull manner after twilicorn. Hell, there could have been episodes that showed more of the different places and races like saddle arabia(that is not set in equestria, or showcasing equestrian races better than what they did) as twi learn about friendship and being a princess and such. Or maybe something better, but I know that they could have done much better with the main six and the overall plot than what they did. The newer writers just dropped the ball.

In my opinion, season 1 is extremely consistent with good quality, but every other season has at least one episode better than anything from it. The best episodes of each season from 2 to 9 are roughly equivalent. However the bad episodes of each season are worse than the bad episodes of the preceding season.
 
I tend to separate the show into three periods thus:
 
Golden Age (Seasons 1-3)  
The golden age, by my definition, is the period when FIM stood on its own, with no official legitimacy for de-ponification. Season 1 and season 2 are very different. Season 1 is an introduction to Ponyville with perspective of an enthusiastic but not at all saccharine Twilight. Season 2 further develops the rest of the mane 6 and the world they live in. When they were only two seasons, they complimented each other very well. Season 3 is lacklustre but mostly because of simply having less episodes.
 
Silver Age (Seasons 4-6)  
Season 4, now a princess Twilight is largely relegated to the background, as there was no plan of how this should have changed the status quo, or what it even means. Otherwise, there is a mix of more ambitious, and more careless episodes. Season 5 finishes the stories of the mane 6. However the map is the most prominent change, and it certainly is a break from the more naturalistic episodes of season 4. Map episodes are safely good, but the lazy setup means that they are never truly great. Season 6 is dull, but Starlight Glimmer is at least a decent temporary relief.
 
Dark Age (Seasons 7-9)  
The first two episodes of season 7 sum it up. The first is an episode where nothing happened. The second takes place in a Ponyville devoid of life, the lack of background ponies makes the place feel like a film set instead of an inviting village. I would say these episodes mark the point where the show staff just does not care. Season 8 is allegorical, so of course it sucks. Season 9 contains more of its badness in a few specific episodes. However even the better episodes of season 9 begin to have less adequate character animation.

@Anonymous #E574  
If they where willing to essentially turn Twilight-Focused episodes into political drama focused through the lens of a show about ponies and friendship for little girls then yes, they could have gone somewhere with Twilight post-alicorn ascension. However I think it’s fair to say that they didn’t want to do that, since that genre appeals more to adults then it does to the show’s main target audience.  
All being kept the way it was (since the status quo is so often god) Twilight’s ascension shouldn’t have happened until the Season 8 finale, earliest.
 
 
@Anonymous #4752  
And yeah, it’s safe to say the show’s writing was already in decline by the beginning of Season 5, so Starlight joined up to fill the void of meaningful growth left for Twilight and already after the show’s writing was starting to dive.
 
 
So using that as a model, the beginning of the slow decline must have been no later then Season 4. And MMC keeps coming up in one way or another…I wonder if it actually was the point where the show began to die after all.

@FeatherTrap  
Eh, maybe not political drama but I do believe that they could have done better with twilicorn is what I was getting at.
 
Also, most do agree that MMC was the turning point. Doesn’t help that there was a massive shitshtorm at that time, and I think even a schism in the fandom. But yes, I believe it would have either been MMC or alittle afterwards.
 
It should also be noted, if memory serves me right, the whole twilicorn debacle seemed to come out of left field.

The problem with Starlight Glimmer is that she has no logic reason to exist because every “new” thing she’s supposed to bring to the series was already being filled by a previous character who did it much better than her, to boot.
 
Repented antagonist with sociopathy issues that cause some involuntary relapses and gives him a lot of issues to understand this empathy thing? That’s Discord’s role.
 
Arrogant unicorn prodigy who brags about her skills and only loves herself, so she needs to learn to be humble, let go her grudge and develop empathy for others? That’s Trixie’s role.
 
Celestia’s prized student who misused what she learned for personal gain and total control? And then she goes on a redemption arc after finally accepting she crewed up? That’s Sunset Shimmer’s role.
 
Genius unicorn who unlike Twilight, had no friends and felt like she never needed any because of a grudge caused by a bad experience with friendship? That’s Moondancer’s role, and she is LITERALLY a Twilight recolor to boot.
 
Any of them could have filled Starlight’s role without a problem, but as the leaked emails and unused pitches revealed, Starlight was Haber’s pet character from day one and she was intended to replace Twilight and friends from season 07 onwards, leading her own group of students. Knowing that, the blatant way as she was put everywhere as the center of everything during 2 seasons makes sense, and one can’t help but wonder what could have happened if Haber’s original plans had made through.
 
And then we had an invasion of more and more new characters who kept taking up space but were rarely used, and when they were used, they usually caused nothing but trouble, like the Pillars, Cadance’s overpowered daugther, the Students (who deserve a rant of their own) and every new character who only existed to support yet another new character, like for example Mudbriar. With so many characters added to a series that already had a lot of characters to begin, it’s only normal to see how the writing quality kept decreasing as the new showrunners were decided to rewrite the series around their own creations and give them the spotlight no matter the cost.

I don’t have a problem with Starlight,at least,not at first.  
But the show felt like it was just going through the motions,not bad,just stationary.  
Season six, Starlight is suddenly a main character. I’ve gotten the argument,“well,she’s not even in every episode”,but that doesn’t take away that she doesn’t do much in her initial episodes. They’re slogs because she isn’t very developed. She’s cute,yeah. She has a dark backstory,but it rarely comes up. It wasn’t until someone thought to pair her with Trixie she became a pretty entertaining character. Saved Trixie,too,who I found dull.  
Season seven straightens itself out,eights fine,there’s some good shows,some clunker shows,but overall none I dislike. Nine is good for the most part,but it doesn’t feel like the end. So many episodes just played like standard episodes.  
I actually like the ending,though of course I have problems with it.  
Pony Life has been enjoyable so far. I’m optimistic for whatever the movie will be and what g5 will be.

@Anonymous #132E  
Ugh, when season 6 had Starlight never learn anything and even mindrape the mane 6 into just being her slaves, I knew there was some screwed up stuff happening backstage. Lo and behold, Haber was having his Mary Sue replace the other characters just like everyone thought. I was quite glad when she failed to sell anything so that plan was abandoned post season 6.
 
I didn’t hate Starlight until she became ‘good’ without ever learning, growing or changing. And that’s not even bringing up her never explained skill level. By the time season 7 happened, they’d made her a better character but the damage was done so she got sidelined for more OOC or repetitive mane 6 stuff.
 
Starlight became okay, but the force behind her is what derailed everything’s quality, the same way the Twilicorn dilemma derailed any easy plot progression.
 
Season 5 is where I’d put the worst decline.

Starlight’s retreading the lessons that the other characters learned was a problem, but my real issue was the Friendship Academy. That felt like it shrunk the setting a lot. Every episode felt like it was tethered to Ponyville or the school. I liked the emphasis on expanding the setting that season 6 had. It was a shame that season 8 irrevocably condensed the setting to whatever affected the school. We saw so little of the Western half of Equestria.
 

 
There’s a huge swath of map called “The Undiscovered West”. If not for the school, they might have had episodes that fleshed out the final cardinal direction. And making the Mane 6, who had their own jobs already, into full-time part-time teachers didn’t feel natural any way, and it just paved the way for a new cast of scrappies to relearn the lessons of season 1 for a third time. And shoulder the Mane 6 aside at the same time, which bothered me quite a bit.