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Regarding DNP rules

Replica
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

"A R C H I V E S I T E"
@ZizzyDizzyMC  
I’ll wait and see then.
 
I just wanted transparency and explanation though, to know if you have our best interests in mind and if this site is going to have a good foundation or not. Because I am quite frankly incredibly sick and tired of being shunted off of sites over asinine changes and forced into bad alternatives purely on the basis of “It’s the only viable option right now”.
 
I never wanted to leave tumblr to begin with, I didn’t want Derpibooru to eat itself, I hate twitter and want to fuck off from there. I just want a stable place to post my shit without the site itself trying to fuck me over.
 
@Anonymous #0D90  
All of them, because having control taken away from your own artwork affects everyone, regardless of their reasons.  
That’s the point. You catch me arguing because I am concerned that you guys might be too blinded by the idea of dabbing on some woke cringelord mouthpiece and maximum turbo jew artists to see what it actually means for everyone else, and that you are grossly over exaggerating what a problem the original DNP system was.
 
@Anonymous #31D4  
“If you don’t want your art archived on a site that until recently let you decide if you wanted to or not then you should quit art”, really zinged him there my dude, flawless.
 
Or the site can just, go back to how it was before, and he can continue drawing whatever he wants elsewhere if he is upset about his content being here, which is ultimately what he will end up doing by filing a DMCA and accomplish the same thing anyway. Artist choice.
 
@Anonymous #82A9  
It’s telling that you say this, despite this having been a clause in my commissions sheet for well over 5-6 years now and me having argued in favor of ownership and fair trade for actual eons now.
 
full
 
I’m sorry that the notion of “whats yours is yours, whats mine is mine” comes off as so offensive and regrettable to you.
 
@Anonymous #D764  
It really says something when anon does historical revisionism not even 2 days or so after the site changed it’s policies from “We are literally straight up Derpibooru but with freedom of content, our appeal is that we are exactly the same but wont censor” to “We are kinda like Rainbooru now but with a nicer UI and pretend to be slightly nicer about how we accept content even though our end game is exactly the same”.
 
Can’t imagine why anyone would potentially find issue with such an out of nowhere change.
 
 
@CurtainedWizard  
Or do you mean these embeds are treated just like regular uploads, only instead of the image itself you click a text link to go to the art?
Precisely, if the artist has a preferred upstream canonical source, we present that for the user to click through. It seems perfectly reasonable to me. The art is still locatable by it’s tags, it’s existence acknowledged, until such time the artist is comfortable having it here. It that day is to never come, so be it.
Ask yourself: Would it be reasonable that artists demand Facebook or Discord to not present those embed cards for links? I don’t think that would get very far.
 
Sorry, but what do you mean exactly?
 
Are you implying that the art itself wouldn’t be hosted on the site per se, but rather be a dummy upload with a direct link to the source itself? Because that’d be a really good idea to get around artists not explicitly wanting their content on the site, directing people by link to art source isn’t the same as hosting the art itself after all.
 
How would this be handled for non-public paid content though? What happens if the original post is gone?
Anonymous #A45E
Are you implying that the art itself wouldn’t be hosted on the site per se, but rather be a dummy upload with a direct link to the source itself? Because that’d be a really good idea to get around artists not explicitly wanting their content on the site, directing people by link to art source isn’t the same as hosting the art itself after all.
 
Not a bad idea for getting the views where the artist want them to go and yet have the art existing in some form here  
Or at least until it’s gone for good anyway, then it’s back to archiving
Lisboeta
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

I’ve done little enough for any pony booru in my life so my perspective may be not the best informed here, but
 
a) In general I would strongly support right of the artists to keep their pieces of art off the boorus indefinitely. It really fucking sucks for me, I am only a consumer, not an artist, but forcing their art to be collected and organized by the big site always seemed morally sketchy to me (in a way that sharing art by individual users in group chats, on imageboards etc didn’t even if it may be the same from the legal standpoint
 
b) In a current situation I am torn. DNPing art for an invented cause also seems morally sketchy. More importantly that both options have good and bad consequences. More art - more people enjoying it (and that I consider a good thing) but removing the ability to fully DNP will likely alienate some artists. I am not sure if I can recommend anything it is to consult, think again and calculate all possible consquences.
 
To the artists who may have rightfully disagree with current DNP I have a plea - allow Zizzy a week or two to stabilize ponyboory and to observe actual working of the rules. He may not be entitled to it, but if you are interested in a more friendly community you can show your support - not by abandoning any of your claims but by merely allowing it time to breathe.
CurtainedWizard
Rampant Alicorn - The majestic steed of a blessed crusade (Princeps Seraphim)
Rampant Squirrel - A ferocious friend, here to bear witness to the apocalypse
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained (As the last toll rings)

Devops
The Eponym
@Anonymous #7EA5  
I am unable to determine how you seemed to misinterpret everything to be so perfectly inverse of the stated. The logical conclusion that remains is it’s inorganic faux rhetoric.
 
@Replica  
Are you implying that the art itself wouldn’t be hosted on the site per se, but rather be a dummy upload with a direct link to the source itself? Because that’d be a really good idea to get around artists not explicitly wanting their content on the site, directing people by link to art source isn’t the same as hosting the art itself after all.
How would this be handled for non-public paid content though? What happens if the original post is gone?
 
Correct, a placeholder page could be fashioned, just as social media sites embed for external links. A random example of this concept, grabbed from a general web image search:
 
full
 
If it’s so non-public there is no metadata, why would an entry exist for in the first place? If it’s public enough that there is metadata, a link to the origin would still be perfectly feasible. If the artwork is straight up gone, a helpful guide on where one might seek sources of last resort could be provided.
Frist

I get wanting to be an archival site, but at the same time, don’t have to be this 100% completionist archive, like, it’s not hard to respect artists’ wishes..
 
Real talk, if people don’t want their work posted, just like
 
Leave em alone I say, it’s their business.
 
It just feels like, to prevent more drama and such, respecting artists’s wishes would be ideal. The site runners doing what’s legally required is one thing, I get that, but is it wrong to respect a quick and formal “Hey, don’t post my work here pls, artist verified”.
 
I’m mostly in the camp of avoiding unnecessary headbutting and just being respectful.
 
Cuz at the end of the day, everyone has their reasons, whatever they be. Legality is legality, but from an ethics viewpoint, personally I’d be of the mindset of “Hey, they asked nicely, least we can do is respect that request and just get it over with, quick n dirty, everyone’ happy.”
 
Shouldn’t come down to having to basically doxx yourself.. (unless I’m misunderstanding that part).
 
Think you can still be a damn good archive, and maybe link to/source anyone who DNP’s, so people can find their work where that artist wants it found. I understand the logistics and all, just trying to keep things cool and respectful across the board.
Perplexia
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

local ceo of antifa
@CurtainedWizard  
gonna be honest, this (as well as the DMCA takedown nonsense) just seems like a very convoluted way of getting around actually respecting artist’s wishes and removing their art from the site upon request
 
if i recall correctly, deleting an image isn’t even permanent. even if people are requesting takedowns for stupid reasons, they can still reverse it at any point if they so wish
 
also keep in mind a lot of artists on the DNP list (myself included) likely just want to keep their artist tag tidy – without random old images or “transformative” edits all over the place – or to be able to remove certain content they no longer wish to be associated with anymore
 
please just settle for not being able to archive every single pony related image that has ever existed or ever will exist in the history of this fandom
Anonymous #3318
Deletion reason: didn't read the whole thread up to this point before commenting
Replica
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

"A R C H I V E S I T E"
@CurtainedWizard  
Hey that’s rad, this would be a great way to bypass DNP’s without stepping on artists.
 
Google did this I think, albeit not in the exact format that you describe.  
They changed the way they display images a p long time ago now to where images are a lower resolution click through that leads to the source.
 
full
 
Iirc they did this to avoid the legal concerns they were facing in regards to hosting full images independent of the source, allowing users access to these despite certain sites not being okay with the way this was handled.  
The actual format of this is more of a detail too, you’ll have to distinguish this in some way from regular uploads in the gallery, and perhaps discuss if thumbnail links of that kind should fall under a default hidden filter or be treated as normal uploads in terms of filtering.
 
This proposal kind of leans on the idea that DNP’s return to being permanent though, otherwise this ends up as a trolly method of presenting users on Ponybooru here with content immediately on release in a weird “Ha ha your image isn’t technically on the site yet but it will be in 3+ months :^))” kind of way, which just takes us back to square one.
 
Imo, ideally you’d return control to artists over their content, but run this in parallel should artists decide to file for takedown of all their content.
 
Problem I’d forsee though is if artists remove content from their sites, but the content still being available elsewhere, like say, on Rainbooru. Wouldn’t this lead to people linking to paid/locked/removed content that’s been reuploaded elsewhere and Ponybooru supporting this under the reasoning that the content in question is technically public?
 
I don’t and have never paywalled myself, but in the hypotethical where, I happen to have a piece of content that is paywalled, with no intention of releasing it for free to the public. You claim that this system wouldn’t support this piece of content in this form. This content gets jacked and reuploaded elsewhere, and thumbnail linked here. I object.  
Do you support me in this circumstance, or them?
 
Mind you also, the system you describe shouldn’t be covering images that are just completely gone if I’m understanding this correctly. If I have the sole upload of an image on say, twitter, and I remove that tweet, that image would be gone forever.
CurtainedWizard
Rampant Alicorn - The majestic steed of a blessed crusade (Princeps Seraphim)
Rampant Squirrel - A ferocious friend, here to bear witness to the apocalypse
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained (As the last toll rings)

Devops
The Eponym
also keep in mind a lot of artists on the DNP list (myself included) likely just want to keep their artist tag tidy
 
I think I’d rather surface a method in which artists may curate a gallery of their tag as the default landing for the tag itself, because ultimate control of your tag isn’t necessarily in your hands. Another artist, for example, could create a new work using components of yours in a fair use composition and thus add to your tag without any action by you at all. That was true on the forerunners, such as Derpi, as well.
 
@Replica  
It was already stated DNPs shall allow the artist to specify longer terms.
 
I absolutely support the right of artist to make money, and will not be party to circumvention of such facilities without a generous wide berth. The system, as I envisioned, would direct to first party sources. So the only such time that this sites would directly link another booru is the circumstance in which the artist is the credited uploader, or known uploader but masked as anonymous as I’ve seen that situation exist several times. We will not consider another boorus piracy as grounds for considering materials “public”, unless an entire year has passed, and perhaps even never.
Perplexia
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

local ceo of antifa
@CurtainedWizard  
thank you, this is much more clear than just “transformative” or “sufficiently different from the original”
 
in situations like this the artist tag could simply be removed from the image if they didn’t want it attached to them (especially in this case as you can barely recognise the art itself)
 
the artist-curated gallery idea sounds more or less the same as putting edits under a different tag, which is fine for those who request that specifically, but otherwise it’s still trying to get around just not hosting an image whatsoever
Replica
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

"A R C H I V E S I T E"
@Replica
It was already stated DNPs shall allow the artist to specify longer terms.
 
Uh.
 
So your thumbnail linking system is actually only to circumvent the timed DNP’s before they expire, on top of allowing for a type of legal circumventing of DNP takedown & DMCA?
Perplexia
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

local ceo of antifa
i would like to make one exception where i think it’d be acceptable to host any and all art from an artist, which is if they’ve completely disappeared from the internet entirely, and make no effort to take down any of their work, even if they were previously DNP. this is effectively the same as creative works entering the public domain after the copyright has expired
 
this way artists who actively produce content maintain control over their work, but anything by those who’ve moved on and don’t care anymore is fair game
Anonymous #528F
It’s telling that you say this, despite this having been a clause in my commissions sheet for well over 5-6 years now and me having argued in favor of ownership and fair trade for actual eons now.
Standard practice for commissions is to give non-exclusive rights to commissioner. That means artist can post art on their gallery or even sell it in an art-book or something, but commissioner also have rights to post it everywhere, including boorus. That’s a fair deal.  
On other hand, you can also use EULA-level shady stuff to have full-rights to picture, and give zero rights to commissioner, and that would be legal, but it is something that no sane artist would ever do if they want their reputation intact. Can’t make commissions if no one ever commissions you.
Replica
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

"A R C H I V E S I T E"
@Anonymous #528F  
Standard practice for commissions is to provide a service in which you draw a commissioners idea. The service they pay for is a moment of your time to draw what they want, ownership of the product in question is a separate concept that varies depending on the agreement between the artist and the commissioner.
 
When freelance artists work on commission for say, a company, they are almost always asked to sign an agreement that directly gives the company ownership of the art produced for them. For more informal agreements, such as those between an artist in the fandom (many who either don’t really deal in formalities, or who don’t care) it can become a strange and vague tossup unless specified.
 
This is pretty relevant because about a decade or two ago this kind of agreement was less common within professional business, and ended up with a bunch of artists holding ownership over what they worked on for companies, which obviously fucked the companies over down the line, since you know, they didn’t actually own shit.
 
Also who are you projecting on? I do this and I maintain a perfectly fine and respectable reputation, and cannot meet the demand of people who want to commission me. I’m not sure where you are getting this bizarre notion that maintaining ownership over your own art is some kind of reputation and business suicide.
Barhandar
Fried Chicken - Attended an april fools event
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained (Cheeky Breeky)

My own personal opinion is pretty simple. We have The Pony Archive, Rainbooru and at least one, likely several, unannounced full-archival boorus for saving art.  
Therefore, if someone wants to take their art down from here, let them. If someone wants to keep all their art on something as shitty and unsuitable for artworks as Twitter (jpg conversion, cropping, trash search, etc) or FA (hoops for full res, trash search) or anything else, let them.  
There isn’t actually anything to gain by doing it halfway - halfway of “DNPs but only for certain time and only legal takedowns” gets artists pissed off AND prevents archival, so the site becomes inferior both to “artists can do whatever they wish with their artworks” and “actually a dedicated archive”.
 
That is,  
If you want to compete with Derpibooru, you gotta allow same takedown process, regardless of how smart or stupid you think the artist is for doing so.  
If you want to compete with true archives, you’ll have to not have DNPs or takedowns entirely.  
If you don’t want to compete, then do whatever you wish, but the site will consequently not be particularily popular.
Barhandar
Fried Chicken - Attended an april fools event
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained (Cheeky Breeky)

Sorry, but what do you mean exactly?
Are you implying that the art itself wouldn’t be hosted on the site per se, but rather be a dummy upload with a direct link to the source itself? Because that’d be a really good idea to get around artists not explicitly wanting their content on the site, directing people by link to art source isn’t the same as hosting the art itself after all.
How would this be handled for non-public paid content though? What happens if the original post is gone?
So the glutamate option? It (IIRC, might be some other booru) allows access to pages of deleted images, just hides the images themselves and locks the metadata. So source can still be accessed.
 
@Perplexia  
if i recall correctly, deleting an image isn’t even permanent. even if people are requesting takedowns for stupid reasons, they can still reverse it at any point if they so wish
Because “deleting” an image just prevents non-staff from accessing it, you need to personally ask someone with host access (or for the pic to be illegal) to do a hard wipe of the file.
Pagan_Pone
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

Norse Horse
I think the best way to have this site to be an archive is to just be a good site that doesn’t go against it’s userbase, having a perfectly good DNP system like derpi’s works fine so long as the site doesn’t pull some BS that causes people to want to remove their art from it. By simply not censoring people and their work, not implementing rules behind their back and generally having bad or biased moderation people will have no reason to remove their art in the first place, rather than restricting their ability to remove it you should just work on earning their trust and respect instead.
evan555alpha
Rampant Stag - A swift sidekick
Fried Chicken - Attended an april fools event
Chatty Kirin - A user who has reached a combined 1000 forum posts or comments.
Artist - you can stop complaining about not having any flavour text on your artist badge now
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

Head Administrator
UwU Chwyasawis my waifu
@Barhandar  
@Pagan_Pone  
Agreed. If things on DB go to shit, I want to go to a place that just doesn’t censor people, not one that also tries to host art from paywalled sources.
 
As Replica said, let the artist upload what they want, if/when they want.
Barhandar
Fried Chicken - Attended an april fools event
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained (Cheeky Breeky)

@Pagan_Pone  
Also this. Blocking something is always much less effective than making people unwilling to do said something.  
Look at China - their censorship is easy to bypass, it “works” only because CPC have created a culture in which people don’t think or look up stuff that got censored.
phoenixFromTheTrashes
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

I <3 Mouthpieces
If it’s public art, it’s public art. It will be shared amongst people, and artists shouldn’t expect the right to hound how others do so. But paywalled art should be protected. Some artists need Patreon and shit to survive.

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