Derpibooru Post Traumatic Stress Disorder Relief Thread

Psy Key
Fried Chicken - Attended an april fools event
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

Cocky Scamp
@Anonymous #A99E  
@Anonymous #428A  
Sure, their actions are more authoritarian than your typical authoritarian, but I wouldn’t label them nazis. Authoritarians, yes, but calling them nazis just uses the same retarded argument they use for calling us nazis.
 
In the end, I’d think we’d all like to live in Nazi Germany as opposed to whatever hellscape these idiots want to construct. Speak to anyone who lived in Nazi Germany at the time, minus the subhumans of course, and they will tell you that it was more or less very peaceful and safe for a some time before the allies closed in.
 
The nazis wanted to get rid of degeneracy and communism. Can you ask for something more based?
Zaknel
Boot badge - It's Bootiful
Fried Chicken - Attended an april fools event
Chatty Kirin - A user who has reached a combined 1000 forum posts or comments.
U Lil Shid - Hi, Im a lil shid.
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

Ezekiel 33:11
I was more interested that the artist outright said this was a headcanon, and the staff literally banned people for tagging it as such.
Anonymous #A99E
@Psy Key  
I would. The way they act if they had just that power. They would toss you in the same concentration camps and do so with glee. A gulag by any other name.  
The Nazis believed their socialism was the true socialism. they were the “National Socialists party” after all and seeing UK’s labor party’s anti-Semitism and many on the left in the US target the 1% typically turns into the same way unless the corporations bow to government and means Nazi Germany used or replaced the heads with party affiliates. It feels like history is repeating.
NorthyDreams
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

Prince of Monsters
@Barhandar  
I vehemently disagree with this. One sided tolerance is fine, you just need to remember that TOLERANCE does not mean ALLOWING yourself to be CO-OPTED. I don’t understand what’s so hard to understand about this.
 
TOLERATING intolerance does not mean ALLOWING the intolerant people to run your shit or trying their ideas.  
It worked for us in the past. I stand by it now.  
The paradox of tolerance, even one sided, does not work. Your reply is drawing the SAME false equivalence between tolerance and acceptance that they do.
 
Therefore, as per my standards, I reject your idea, but not your right to say it. It’s that simple.
 
I reject the notion that tolerance itself leads to intolerance wholesale. Peddle this poison to someone else.
Barhandar
Fried Chicken - Attended an april fools event
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained (Cheeky Breeky)

@NorthyDreams  
>TOLERATING intolerance does not mean TOLERATING the intolerance
 
false equivalence between tolerance and acceptance that they do
There’s no difference. If you tolerate, by your own definition, the mere presence of certain kinds of people, they will poison your place, causing other kinds people to leave over time, and the toxic kind of people to join up. Even if you waffle around about “not allowing them to run your shit” and “not trying their ideas”. If shitty people feel welcome, you fail. If good people feel unwelcome because you’re too busy kicking shitty people out, you also fail.  
TOLERANCE does not mean ALLOWING yourself to be CO-OPTED
Too bad it leads to exactly that, simply by tolerating too many intolerant people around so they can overcome you by brute force.
NorthyDreams
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

Prince of Monsters
@Barhandar  
No, that’s not what I said and you know it. Tolerance =/= Acceptance of their ideas. Use your head, you’re not stupid.  
You’re putting words in my mouth, which is an extremely disingenuous method of arguing.
 
There is a difference. Shitty people are allowed to exist in this space, their ideas do not control us.  
We must tolerate the existence of their bad ideas and counter with our own good ideas. You are simply wrong.
 
And, in being this kind of wrong you have proven to me that you are no better than they are, for they say exactly the same thing about our free ideas, which is the whole reason why I am disgusted with them in the first place. This censorious attitude is poison and antithetical to the values I and so many others believe in.
 
They are allowed to exist. Your argument is functionally “This happens because you do it badly and allow them to co-opt you inevitably.” which is flagrantly false and presumes additional action beyond the toleration of the existence and speech of the other party. Your argument, therefore, falls flat. “Too bad” is not a rebuttal. “If shitty people feel welcome you fail” is censorious, “If good people feel unwelcome” is feelings over facts in the exact same way that they act that caused the exodus from derpi in the first place. Good people and shitty people must be welcome to voice their opinions and be roundly criticized, equally, for those ideas. If they’re not, you’re not creating a space that allows for free expression in any measure and you might as well just be Derpibooru with a new political bent.
 
You. Are. Everything. Wrong. With. Derpibooru. From. A. New. Angle. If you allow yourself to fall into this same trap.
 
Do not allow these ideas to be implemented in any measure.
Anonymous #A99E
@Barhandar  
This is what happened to many forums, hobby spaces and even companies to be co-opted by furries, progressives and the newer but still very left-leaning group of Queer. The term term “Queer” being used as a mean of a badge to revive more privilege. Another nebulous title to put someone higher this class system created by the others. It is not as cool to be a black trans furry. Now it is Black trans furry who is queer and anyone questioning it is lesser and should be removed.
NorthyDreams
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

Prince of Monsters
@Anonymous #A99E  
I agree that this has happened, but that is not due to toleration of their ideas or existence, it is due to adoption or giving over of power or decision making within these spaces to the ideas that censor the speech of others. These are two completely different things.
Anonymous #428A
@Barhandar  
I share the worry of the site attracting too many retards whose actions end up changing the site for the worse, but I believe the site allowing (so far, at least) their bullshit to be mocked and challenged does enough to make them feel unwelcome, since it isn’t allowed elsewhere.
Barhandar
Fried Chicken - Attended an april fools event
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained (Cheeky Breeky)

You are simply wrong.
k, you’re allowed to continue “tolerating” the hypothetical people who keep smearing shit over places you like because you’re “morally superior” and “above accepting their ideas”.  
and presumes additional action beyond the toleration of the existence and speech of the other party
It presumes absence of action. Absence of, say, purging offtopic from a thread, letting the offtopic constitute more and more of said thread until you either take the oh-so-intolerant action of purging it, or the thread dies because everyone else left (i.e. the fate of several discussion threads on derpi during the debacle, buried by circular offtopic by latecomer et al).  
“If shitty people feel welcome you fail” is censorious, “If good people feel unwelcome” is feelings over facts in the exact same way that they act that caused the exodus from derpi in the first place. Good people and shitty people must be welcome to voice their opinions and be roundly criticized, equally, for those ideas.
This is especially hilarious considering how criticizing shitty people (’s ideas) tends to make them feel unwelcome.  
@Anonymous #428A  
Fucking ninjas.  
Tolerance =/= Acceptance of their ideas.
Irrelevant. Once there’s enough of “them”, your voice will be drowned out. And if you keep being “oh-so-tolerant”, there will get enough of “them” eventually. As a practical example, if you “tolerate” presence of disinterested-in-pony furries in your place that is dedicated to ponies, instead of either converting or ostracizing them, they’ll create topics dip-furries are interested in, and eventually topics only dip-furries are interested in. This is how ponychan fell and became leftoid-furry-hipsterchan.
 
 
Oh, and speaking of facts and feelings? Humans aren’t automatons. Both have to be accounted for, if you aim to be a forum or other public-conversation space.
 
@NorthyDreams  
No they’re not. You can’t have your “tolerating someone’s presence” and “don’t give power to them” too. If you keep being all “people being tolerated totally cannot affect this place at all guize”, you WILL fail.
NorthyDreams
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

Prince of Monsters
@Barhandar  
People are allowed to create what they like. Period. You’re going to have to learn to live with shit on the walls, occasionally, especially since you’ve shown you are willing to smear shit by other people’s definitions on the walls already. It’s not about being morally superior, it’s about doing the right thing. You don’t compromise for the sake of your own comfort. Not in the slightest. Defending freedom of expression means defending the rights of people you disagree with, consistently, even though you disagree with them.
 
You don’t need to purge ideas you disagree with to enforce the basic rules of the site. Stop equating the two, it doesn’t make you look smart and it’s absolutely not what anyone has said. There’s nothing intolerant about enforcing the rules, it becomes intolerant when the rules disallow discussion of ideas you disagree with. Stop equating the tolerance of speech and ideas you disagree with to the allowing of the violation of the rules. It doesn’t hold water, and I sincerely hope no one is swayed by your garbage argumentation.
 
“Criticism of ideas” =/= “Lack of those ideas being welcome”. In a place that venerates freedom of expression, the EXACT thing that people left Derpi to attempt to preserve, people must be allowed to speak their minds. If they feel welcome to speak them is irrelevant so long as their rights are protected and they are allowed to speak. Just as I didn’t care if the culture of Derpibooru wasn’t hospitable to the ideas of free expression so long as the leadership weren’t cracking down on free expression, so too do I not care if the culture here is inhospitable to the ideas of free expression (yourself included) so long as the right to freedom of expression is respected.
 
“Your voice will be drowned out.” You are allowed to criticize and push back. What the hell do you think I’m doing right now? This argument literally relies on the idea that there are more shitty people that exist than people who will stand for freedom of expression, first off… and secondly it relies on the idea of site leadership handing over the reins to people who would censor other people, which is a ludicrous proposal that is still a requirement of making action above and beyond that of just tolerating ideas and expression.
 
Your only counterargument is ‘eventually shitty people will overcome you by numbers’, which doesn’t mean anything if you don’t hand them the keys to censor other people. Look at where we are – it’s a response to censorship in the first place. Derpibooru did hand over those keys and they still couldn’t quash dissent, which completely shreds your idea of how this is supposed to work.
 
In the example given of dip-furries, it doesn’t matter if they create their own furry only topics, those topics don’t prevent the discussion of what we want, and if they’re off topic to the site and the site’s topic is pony and the rules are about pony related discussion, then follow the rules. It’s literally that simple. The off-topic section of the forums exist for a reason. People are allowed to blow in, through and by our group and trying to stop that isn’t going to help anyone. Handing them the reins isn’t “tolerance” and trying to equate it with tolerance makes you look like like you can’t distinguish simple concepts.
 
Two possibilities exist from that;  
Either you can distinguish topics and are doing this deliberately to attempt to undermine the concept of free expression, in which case you’re a poorly disguised authoritarian and therefore are the problem in the first place…  
Or you can’t distinguish topics and are incapable of understanding the difference between tolerance and more than tolerance, in which case I pity you and you probably shouldn’t be talking about things you can’t understand.
 
Oh, and speaking of facts and feelings? Humans aren’t automatons, but the rules have to be written to apply to everyone equally, regardless of who they are. People’s right to ‘feel’ a certain way does not trump the right of others to express freely. It shouldn’t have trumped the right of people like us to express in the pony space on Derpibooru (which is why we left) and it shouldn’t trump the right of people like them to express in the pony space here, even if they’re mocked for it. That is how freedom of expression works.
 
“You will fail” is not an argument. Get better material. People being tolerated doesn’t affect the rules of a space, or a culture. People’s ideas being ELEVATED does that. People being allowed to CHANGE the rules does that. Those aren’t tolerance. You’ve failed to make an equivocation and your argument is a pile of disconnected assertions that mean nothing.
Anonymous #A99E
@Anonymous #A99E
I agree that this has happened, but that is not due to toleration of their ideas or existence, it is due to adoption or giving over of power or decision making within these spaces to the ideas that censor the speech of others. These are two completely different things.
 
That’s how they took over and it WILL happen again. These are the same people that would ban you from their spaces and bar you from any gathering just because they can and will. You will not win like this only drive people who were victims of them away until they are all that’s left. It’s a certain and slow. painful death.
NorthyDreams
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

Prince of Monsters
@Anonymous #A99E  
Regardless of what they’ve done, they are to be treated equally. I don’t care if they would ban me, me banning their existence would only justify, at that point, what they try to do to me. I don’t want to “win”. I’m not here to have “my side” dominate discussion. I am against the banning of expression of any kind, so long as no one is harmed (i.e. no pedophilia, no actionable calls to specific violence, etc). I will stand up for the rights of anyone to speak, no matter how much I hate what they have to say. Period.
 
Having been censored does not justify censoring others in the name of stopping censorship. Ever.
Anonymous #A99E
@NorthyDreams  
Knowing who are instigators and keeping them from their shit flinging isn’t censorship. It is removing actual problematic people fr. I know that word is very tainted but with how they have gone with impunity. They won’t learn unless the lesson is harsh and the longer they go the harsher it should be and they had near a decade to understand that and did not.
Boxless

Mmm, Warcrimes
@NorthyDreams  
All this argument between you and Bar has shown me is that you’re okay with the cycle repeating itself (You do not belong here->ok we will make our own place->why are you excluding us->you do not belong here) which, as shown during the relatively recent Challenger disaster that initiated the altboorus existing, IS NOT VIABLE and WILL KILL THE FANDOM.  
What part of it hasn’t gone full twattard, anyways, which in many ways would be worse than the fandom just up and croaking.  
The cycle must be broken and remain shattered or all that we’ll be left with is ash, the occasional ramshackle shack in the desert, and whatever tainted shit-wells still exist afterwards. At the moment, we’re still on that knife’s edge thanks to people simply being unaware of Derpi’s shit practices or willfully choosing it instead of moving elsewhere for ‘exposure’ reasons.  
@NorthyDreams  
the ironic part is that the shitflingers in question are supporters of foalcon, which is the entire reason derpi isn’t completely purity spiralled at the moment (too many staff members okay with it and refusing to do anything against it)
NorthyDreams
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

Prince of Monsters
@Anonymous #A99E  
I don’t care if they’re not pleasant. I don’t care if it causes problems to allow free expression.  
I care immensely about this community, and I refuse to clam up and allow it to succumb to censorship, even and especially “For its own good”. If I was like you are suggesting, I would be demanding you all be shut up right now.  
If you don’t agree with this, you don’t believe in freedom of expression. Outright.  
If you don’t believe in freedom of expression, that’s fine, but I thank my lucky stars that you are not in control of anything.
 
 
@Boxless  
No, I refuse to accept that this is an inevitability if one doesn’t censor others’ opinions and you have failed to provide any argument for why that is the case. The problem with Derpi was that the censors gained power without any recourse for holding them accountable. It is not that discourse ‘was allowed’ leading to that inevitably. If you’d like to make an actual case for how that is an inevitability, then feel free to make it, but don’t pretend like you have an argument when you don’t.
 
Not a single one of you has an actual statement of why allowing discourse and freedom of expression inevitably leads to the Derpibooru situation. You have no argument, just a bad example that doesn’t fit what you’re trying to say is necessary. Overturning the commitment to freedom of expression requires a LOT more than one bad example of something that happened as a result of not having a commitment to freedom of expression.
 
If anything, derpibooru is the PERFECT example of why we need to maintain our commitment to this. The censorious position is the exact one that will lead to the repeating of the cycle, not mine.
Anonymous #A99E
@NorthyDreams  
Freedom of expression does not mean to allow people to come in and walk all over you and especially allowing it others. It would not be fair to those that had to deal with it from Derpi see those who acted with impunity just come in without any reflection on their actions. They should be put on a short leash if they have no plan on just ignoring their actions. most would even act they were in the right to insult and throw slurs at the people that came here. Worst case scenario biding their time until they take over and do the same. You can hold your views but don’t be so foolhardy about it. That will just lead to problems.
NorthyDreams
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

Prince of Monsters
@Anonymous #A99E  
The thing about freedom of expression is: You’re also allowed to insult the people you don’t like.  
That’s not disallowed under it.
 
They’re allowed to say what they want and so are you. That’s how this works.  
They cannot take over if you don’t hand them the keys, even if they come in force.  
Handing them the keys is not the same as Tolerance. They don’t get to decide what the rules are either.  
That’s how this works. Don’t be a fool, yourself. You’re the one advocating for what they advocate for in the opposite direction. You are directly justifying their actions.
 
Stop that.
 
Doing the right thing, even if it causes issues sometimes, is more important.  
There’s not just bad targets, there are bad methods, and bad methods are not to be used, regardless of target.  
Censorship is a bad method.
 
@IvanSatoru  
Fuck Furries getting out of control. I hate it as much as the next person.  
The rules exist for a reason.
Anonymous #428A
It sounds to me like both sides are arguing for more or less the same thing: Those who come and violate the rules/spirit of the rules should be removed.
Barhandar
Fried Chicken - Attended an april fools event
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained (Cheeky Breeky)

@NorthyDreams  
@NorthyDreams  
tl;dr of what you’re saying: “I think that basic symmetrical tolerance is totally not related to tolerance and you must exhibit symmetrical tolerance to exhibit tolerance”. All we’re arguing is semantics and you keep trying to implicate me in asymmetrical tolerance (i.e. “not tolerating people who are not yet intolerating me”). Asymmetry works both ways. Also, the irony of you claiming I am putting words in your mouth, then keeping putting words in my, and others’, mouths (and attacking me directly, which, while mostly symmetrical, shows you’re not really morally superior).
 
@NorthyDreams  
so long as no one is harmed (i.e. no pedophilia
Obligatory reminder that your definition of “pedophilia” does not and never will match an average leftoid’s definition of pedophilia (the latter being “anything that is kinda sorta maybe associated with porn and underage” as opposed to, you know, “diddling actual children” to the point leftoids sometimes attack lolicon and defend nambla/pie/map in the same breath).
 
@NorthyDreams  
The “censors gaining power” is a consequence of “derpi fostered retards and degenerates”, not the cause. Fostered by making them welcome and letting them go unchallenged, i.e. tolerating them in excess as opposed to exhibiting the basic symmetrical intolerance of “you talk shit, we insult you with image macros”.  
Not a single one of you has an actual statement
That is not for you to decide. You’re also phrasing your posts in a pretty “my way or highway” way, which I find ironic and hilarious.
 
@NorthyDreams  
Ok, you let me insult people all I want (excessive tolerance), I gather a bunch of friends and start targetted harassment of someone, you keep enabling me to do it because HURR DURR TOLERANCE HURR DURR MUST BE ALLOWED TO INSULT exactly what derpi did, except they’re selective about who to allow to go on insulting sprees; but selectivity doesn’t really matter because people prefer to not deal with shit, I get people I target to leave or respond in kind, repeat until your oh so tolerant site is wasteland or toxic dump.  
They cannot take over if you don’t hand them the keys
You’re literally handing over the keys with the kind of rules you propose. People who are insulted enough will leave instead of insulting back. It’s not a reason to ban insults altogether i.e. asymmetrically intolerating, but it’s a reason to not have a blanket rule allowing any and all insults i.e. asymmetrically tolerating.
Zaknel
Boot badge - It's Bootiful
Fried Chicken - Attended an april fools event
Chatty Kirin - A user who has reached a combined 1000 forum posts or comments.
U Lil Shid - Hi, Im a lil shid.
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

Ezekiel 33:11
I just do not have the energy to read this whole thing right now, so somebody please tell me: Is this argument debating whether the philosophy of disrespecting those who disrespect you is a good one? That seems like what it is.
Barhandar
Fried Chicken - Attended an april fools event
Artist -
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained (Cheeky Breeky)

@Zaknel  
That’s what it boils down to, with the positions being “you MUST respect those who disrespect you” on Northy’s side, and “you must disrespect those who disrespect you exactly as much as they do - if you disrespect them more you’re a dick, if you disrespect them less they can take over you” on mine.
 
Of course, actually debating that needs a definition of “respect” first; technically the tolerance discussion also does, but it’s not quite necessary as it ended up being “the actions you implicitly define as tolerance lead to fucking up”.
Zaknel
Boot badge - It's Bootiful
Fried Chicken - Attended an april fools event
Chatty Kirin - A user who has reached a combined 1000 forum posts or comments.
U Lil Shid - Hi, Im a lil shid.
Liberty Belle - Sings the song of the unchained

Ezekiel 33:11
I am not a very consistent person because there are different aspects of me that pull me in different directions. Off the top of my head there are religious obligations; logical deductions; selfish emotions; past experiences. These and others frequently pull me in very different directions, hence I am not consistent.
 
This whole philosophy of disrespecting others who disrespect you is the only thing I can think of in my entire life where every single thing that determines how I act agrees: This is a bad idea and is likely to actually make the situation worse. That’s why I got so mad when I saw admins on this site condoning this philosophy.
 
Being vitriolic with others actually makes you feel worse, it really does. The Bible tells us to forgive others. In the past, when I did this at the recommendation of others, it made everyone hate me. And if you are rude to others, they are unlikely to think that you are doing it for a reason, and are more likely to just think you are a rude person.
 
I don’t like Ciaran, but I wouldn’t do this to him.
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